The following is a converstation which took place in 1979, between Dr. K. K. Datey, Emeritus Professor and Director of Cardiology at both K. E. M. Hospital in Bombay and the Medical Research Center at Bombay Hospital. He has served as the personal physician of India’s President, and among his 250-plus publications is the book “How to Keep Your Heart Young and Healthy.” Here the doctor speaks with Dr. M. A. Marchetti (Bhakti Madhava Puri Swami) of the Bhaktivedanta Institute.
A CONVERSATION ON THE EXISTENCE OF THE SOUL
Dr. Marchetti: I understand that you recommend hatha -yoga exercises for your patients. Can you explain why you think yoga can be beneficial in the medical profession?
Dr. Datey: Well yoga, particularly hatha-yoga, can help one in various ways. It helps the physical condition of the patient and helps to keep the whole body fit. The practices are devised in such a way that they give exercise to every part of the body, including the nervous system, the skeletal system and joints, the lungs, the heart, the abdomen, and the internal viscera. And in order to train the mind, the exercises of meditation, etc. are superb. They train the mind in the sense that they try to give you better control over your life. These techniques are all self-regulation techniques. By following these techniques you get a better control and don’t get upset so easily with the slings and arrows of life. These are some of the advantages of practice.
Dr. Marchetti: So the control of the mind is a very important part of the yoga system.
Dr. Datey: The mind is more important than the body.
Dr. Marchetti: The mind and the body are two different things?
Dr. Datey: Yes, but they are closely interrelated.
Dr. Marchetti: I was wondering if you might comment on what the difference between a dead body and a living body is.
Dr. Datey: The difference between a dead body and a living body is that the living one can respond to the known stimuli.
Dr. Marchetti: What is the source of that response in the living body?
Dr. Datey: Well, the source of that response is the physiological and nervous systems’ reactions.
Dr. Marchetti: But aren’t the physiological and nervous systems present in the dead body as well?
Dr. Datey: They are present, but they are not operating.
Dr. Marchetti: Then what is the cause of the operation or inoperation of those systems?
Dr. Datey: If we knew what was the spark that lights or kindles the fire that keeps you going, then that would answer the 64-million dollar question!
Dr. Marchetti: I see. Well, would you agree that the difference between a dead body and a living body is consciousness?
Dr. Datey: Yes–whatever you want to call it. You can call it any name.
Dr. Marchetti: Now, the body is composed of so many atoms – carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, etc. –none of which possesses any consciousness individually as atoms, or collectively as molecules or macromolecules. So, what is the origin of the consciousness within the living body?
Dr. Datey: We still don’t know exactly why at one moment a person can do whatever he wants, and at the next moment he is dead. What departs from the body? Does something depart from the body when one dies, implying that something has previously entered the body to make it alive? Take the experiences of individuals who supposedly die and then come back. They report various types of experiences. I think there are a few books on this subject–some written by doctors, and some by non-doctors–describing the experiences ‘of these people. They actually go out of their body, and later they can describe what was happening to their body on the operating table.
Dr. Marchetti: So there is some evidence that something leaves the body and enters the body. The ancients, of course, have always talked about the existence of the atma, or soul, as a minute particle within the body that gives consciousness and life. This is something the Bhaktivedanta Institute is interested in investigating and establishing on a completely scientific basis.
Dr. Datey: Well, what is the atma?
Dr. Marchetti: The atma is the source of consciousness within the body. It is ultimately a non-physical, nonchemical entity. It is the eternal person, who has an existence independent of the atoms and molecules of this world. In the Vedas the atma is described as being smaller than an atom.
Dr. Datey: So where does this energy, or atma, come from? And where does it go?
Dr. Marchetti: That is also described in the Vedas. First of all, the atma comes from the supreme atma, or paramatma, and it is eternally part and parcel of that Supreme. By forgetfulness of this fact the infinitesimal atma comes under the influence of the material atmosphere and enters the material world. If the atma is still under the influence of the material atmosphere at the time of death, he/she remains in the material world by taking another body, and if he/she is free of material desires and influences he/she can leave the material world and go to the world in which there is full remembrance or consciousness of God, the Supreme atma. In any case, the atma is conserved; he is never created or destroyed. He/she is an eternal, fragmental particle of the whole, just as the atom is part of the whole universe.
Dr. Datey: This is the Hindu philosophy.
Dr. Marchetti: But we are trying to say that this is not just mythology. The descriptions in the Bhagavad-Gita, for instance, are supported by some scientific, experimental verification.
Dr. Datey: What is the verification?
Dr. Marchetti: First of all, the living body obviously behaves quite differently from the dead body. The scientists have not yet discovered what that difference is, but according to the Bhagavad-gita, there is a particle present in the living body that is not present in the dead body. When that particle is present, the body behaves in a different way than it would without its presence.
Dr. Datey: Where is that particle?
Dr. Marchetti: Actually, it is located in the heart.
Dr. Datey: No. The heart can be dead, the heart can stop, and the patient can still function.
Dr. Marchetti: What do you mean?
Dr. Datey: The heart can stop and the patient can be revived again, even after the stoppage of the heart. So the soul can’t be in the heart. Although from my experience I agree there must be something, unfortunately the instruments we have are not adequate to measure this
Dr. Marchetti: What do you think they would have to measure?
Dr. Datey: They would have to measure the atma. How do you measure the atma? So far you have mentioned only some inferences
Dr. Marchetti: Again, one has to first understand that if the atma is nonphysical and nonchemical, then what does that leave you to measure.
Dr. Datey: Well, we would need some sort of a device to detect it. Something should be there – some vibration, or something else.
Dr. Marchetti: You were speaking of the mind before. How would you measure the activities of the mind?
Dr. Datey: Same problem: We talk about this in abstract terms only.
Dr. Marchetti: What about the science of psychology? Doesn’t that try to develop certain systematic tests for measuring the mind?
Dr. Datey: No, the science of psychology measures only the reactions of the human mind. But what is the mind? We can’t show what exactly the mind is through psychology.
Dr. Marchetti: When you say you can’t describe the mind itself, you mean it can’t be described in terms of physics and chemistry.
Dr. Datey: Yes, at the moment our science is not perfect. We do not have equipment or tests to detect these things. There may be some vibration, there may be some subtle forces. For instance, transference of thought, ESP–there is no way to detect such things except by certain inferential methods.
Dr. Marchetti: Why do you insist on reducing every thought, or every feeling, or every conscious act to something energetic – to something that can be measured like so many billiard balls?
Dr. Datey: That is the only way you can prove it. You may talk about rebirth, but what is the proof? How can you prove that the atma goes from one body to the next?
Dr. Marchetti: There are certain reports about rebirth in parapsychological literature. A person under hypnosis begins talking about a previous life, say, in a country that he has never visited, giving accurate details that can all be confirmed by a team of investigators. The individual couldn’t possibly have known such things without having been there in a previous life. Then there are the cases of child prodigies, like Mozart, who have certain skills or knowledge that a small child could never develop from infancy, but which he could only have retained from a previous life.
Dr. Datey: These things often prove false. There is the famous case of Bridie Murphy, who under hypnosis described events in her last life in very great detail. Afterwards a check was made, and they found that the whole thing was wrong. Of course, it is not easy after one generation to determine whether the person’s account of the past is correct or not. To determine who was there, after thirty or forty years, may not be very easy. These stories have also come out in India. For instance, there was one girl in Agra who could describe her past life.
Dr. Marchetti: The Bhagavad-gita gives a very interesting argument for rebirth. It says that in one lifetime you change your body as you go from childhood to adolescence to old age. Thus you can visually see that your baby body is now completely gone, your adolescent body is similarly no longer here. You have completely changed your body several times, yet you retain basically the same abstract ego or identity.
Dr. Datey: The body changes at every moment.
Dr. Marchetti: Yet you maintain a constant, unchanging identity. Is this not proof of rebirth?
Dr. Datey: Well, eternal change is going on.
Dr. Marchetti: Yes. Dr. Datey: But the proof that when you die the atma goes out and enters another body–that proof remains.
Dr. Marchetti: That proof is the one I just gave you–that your baby body is dead and gone, its atoms completely dispersed within the universe, and that you are now in another body and yet are the same person.
Dr. Datey: No. The body has not completely gone. The same body has been changed.
Dr. Marchetti: You have the same body that you had when you were a baby?
Dr. Datey: The cells have been changing.
Dr. Marchetti: Everything is changed. Is it not so?
Dr. Datey: Every few months the body changes.
Dr. Marchetti: So the body is constantly changing, but what remains the same? What is that “I” who remembers, “I was a baby,” I was a young boy”? The “I ,” who remains unchanged, can talk about the changing body. Is that not proof that the atma can undergo rebirth?
Dr. Datey: Where is the proof for reincarnation?
Dr. Marchetti: The body changes, but the atma remains the same. That is what is meant by rebirth.
Dr. Datey: But it is the same body into which the atma had originally entered.
Dr. Marchetti: It’s not the same body. Your body is now completely different from the one you took birth in.
Dr. Datey: In so far as the cells have changed-
Dr. Marchetti: Everything is different–there are different cells, different matter, a different size and shape, etc.
Dr. Datey: Yes.
Dr. Marchetti: This is the most direct proof of rebirth that can be given.
Dr. Datey: That means, in short, that you will have to go back to the law of karma.
Dr. Marchetti: That is also there, but let us keep to the topic of the atma and the body. There are two different things, the atma and the body, and these can be observed in our daily experience. Maybe you cannot measure the atma, yet it is a fact of conscious experience that something exists beyond the body. One might call this inferential proof, but it is exactly like the proof we have for the existence of the electron. No one has ever seen an electron. You see some streak on a cloud chamber, and you infer that it was caused by a small particle, but you never actually see the particle. You just infer its existence. In this way, much of science is based upon inference.
Dr. Datey: So the existence of something unchanged beyond the changing body is a scientific conclusion?
Dr. Marchetti: Yes.
Dr. Datey: But you still haven’t proved reincarnation. The Christians, for example, do not believe in reincarnation.
Dr. Marchetti: In the 7th century A. D. the Christians actually did believe in reincarnation. The emperor Justinian passed the famous Anathema against Origen, one of the founding fathers of the Church, who was teaching reincarnation.
Dr. Datey: My points are these: one, how can you prove reincarnation scientifically, and two, in what way, by affecting the mind, can we help people to improve their body and improve what they are doing in their life.
Dr. Marchetti: The first point can be proven only when we understand that the atma and the consciousness are nonmaterial principles. Unless we understand the fundamental nature of these things, we cannot hope to prove anything about them. Since the atma is completely different from dead matter, we cannot expect to understand much about it from a purely material perspective, although certain inferences can be drawn by observing the interaction of the atma with matter. Concerning your second point, about improving one’s life, one must first ascertain the root cause of degradation of life; otherwise one may simply be attempting to treat the symptoms without curing the actual disease. According to the Bhagavad-gita, the root cause of all problems is the unwillingness of the individual living entities to dovetail their consciousness in a cooperative loving relationship with the complete, whole, super-consciousness of God. You may practically observe that people who have actually developed God consciousness have controlled minds and bodies and live a peaceful and satisfying life.
Dr. Datey: Well, if one accepts all this then he has to accept the concept of karma, that everything happens on an a priori principle.
Dr. Marchetti: Cause and effect is the basic a priori assumption of science–indeed of all rational thought. Whatever happens must be the result of some previous cause. So the law of karma is a very scientific principle.
Dr. Datey: But the existence of the controlling factor or energy would be beyond the detection of our modern apparatus. Even in Indian methods of yoga, they talk about the kundalini. This is quite a different thing from what you have been talking about.
Dr. Marchetti: There are so many things we can analyze and try to understand, but I think that strictly on the basis of the established sciences of physics, chemistry, and biology, we can demonstrate that higher principles beyond matter are working in the universe and that the basic principle of conscious life can never be reduced to the insentient principles of matter. To understand the fundamental, irreducible and transcendental nature of what we call consciousness will open up a new realm of thought for modern man. The aim of the Bhaktivedanta Institute is to establish this most fundamental principle of knowledge. We request all the intelligent and serious scientists to do research in this area very seriously.
Dr. Datey: Well, I can’t do any laboratory analysis at this time, but I will certainly keep you abreast of any clinical findings in these areas.
Dr. Marchetti: Dr. Datey, thank you very much for your time.